VOX Magazine

September 1997

Interviewed by Roger Morton

"Make me look young and handsome!" cackles the sports gear nightmare from the corner of Virgin Records' LA conference room. "Polyfilla please!"

The make-up girl looks apprehensive to the point of tears, but today, at least, she has no need to worry. Bouncing back from the Sex Pistols' reformation into a brash and challenging solo career phase, John Lydon is on bubbly and mischievous form.

One hour in the company of the ex-destroy boy and he mangles the office CD player and deconstructs the coffee machine in a way which raises fears for the techno gear he's been using to put together his first solo album, 'Psycho's Path'.

The lengthy phase of wrestling with drum machines and bashing Akais has, however, been worth it. The solo world of Lydon is as potent and singular as ever, dispensing with the rockier elements of his Public Image Ltd. ouvre and reeling down a crazed path of neo-folk, twisted techno, Leftfield and Chemical Brothers mixes and completely unclassifiable cubist sample madness.

Not only is 'Psycho's Path' his most naked musical work (Lydon's inclined to refer to himself as a "noise structuralist"), it's also his most personal lyrically, revealing a more caring creature than the old image portrayed, as it scythes into politics, religion and even - on 'Take me' - his need to be loved.

As an addition to the life story so candidly detailed in his autobiography No Irish No Blacks No Dogs, the solo phase is a splendid appendix. The son of an Irish labourer made good now gets to howl out a whole new chapter in his brilliant career. From tin baths and Dettol scrubs in Finsbury park, through meningitis and six months in coma aged seven (it gave him the Richard III hunch and the stare), the bitching, generation altering flash of the Sex Pistols, the police brutality in the UK and on to PiL avant garde-ism and air conditioned California life with his wife Nora, Lydon is an amazing survivor. He was, after all, only 17 when the Pistols exploded.

As he proves today, he's lost none of the spikiness, although maybe the wicked sense of humour is now wielded more to amuse than to draw blood.

Lydon is undoubtedly the last of the great individuals. The tape's not even on and he's already off, coughing like the old days, fags going down rapidly as he burns holes in his targets.

"They're trying to take the nicotine out of fags, aren't they? Makes them absolutely pointless, just like decaffeinated coffee. Waste of bloody effort!"

People should be allowed to kill themselves then?

"Yes! Freedom of choice. Not any more in America. They start there and then when are they going to stop? But then this country's always been more manipulated and controlled than anything that the Eastern block had to offer. All that 'I pledge allegiance to the flag' is brainwashing of a kind. You're not actually allowed a choice about it. And the burning of the flag, oooh heaven forbid such a thing. Haha! It's absurd!"

How do you feel about the Sex Pistols' tour now?

"Well that idea had been floating around for years. I'd been reading it in the press and I thought, 'Well why the hell not?' I could definitely use the money. And so I did it. And knew why I was doing it. So to me, it's like it's justice. At last out of the Sex Pistols I actually got something rather than abuse and hate."

Why have you recorded this solo album now?

"It wasn't supposed to be. I was signed to Atlantic and instead of spending the money on rehearsal studios and recording studios, I came up with the rather brilliant idea of spending the advance on building my own recording studio and work around that. I've been in bands now for 20 odd years, so this is just a bit different for me, and I like it. But, goddamn, it's nerve-racking. Well, I can't blame anyone for anything on the record, can I? Where's Wobble when you need him? Hahaha! Oh that bad bit, it woz 'im wot done it sir."

There's a lot of techno and rave influences on 'Psycho's Path'. Did you approve of the brotherly love vibe that came out of Ecstasy culture?

"Brotherly love bollocks! Ecstasy's a drug! It's a drug! If you've got brotherly love you've got it, you don't need chemical compounds to put that there - otherwise it's false. You're just a hypocrite then. Buuuuurp!"

Nicky Wire from the Manics said: "E has ruined the working class in Britain." What do you think?

"E or he? Hahahaha! I like that band by the way, they're really all right. They have been for years. They do some very interesting things. E ruined the working classes? No heroin has. That's what destroyed the working class, heroin. Everything else I don't see as a problem. Heroin and crack are a problem. Heroin is everywhere and it's just riddled the council estates into something vile and horrible."

I was surprised to read that you'd tried it.

"Well, at the time everybody was doing it and I was absolutely dead against it and the attitude was: 'Oooh, well, if you haven't tried it you can't talk about it.' So it was more like a dare and a challenge. And I absolutely hated it. Such foolishness! God! And then the remark that: 'Oooh, you've got to do it a couple times for it to really work.' But it's awful! Why would I want to keep doing this? To get where? To get back to normal? Doesn't that strike you as extremely stupid?"

You've criticized the working class for being lazy and yet...

"But no, I'm just honest, because I think it needs to be said, they are very lazy and they just seem to take all that nonsense on the nose and don't challenge it and don't stand up and fight against it. There's a great deal of apathy in Britain for that. And that's why it'll go on the way it is. You've now got a new government, but quite frankly, have you? That's conservative policies through and through. And I absolutely despise Tony Blair. I think he's vile. He just strikes me as a really seedy third-rate lawyer. He has that vibe about him. Eeeurgh! Thoroughly dishonest, that man."

But he's made such a point of his Christianity.

"Bleeeeurgh! Hihiha! Awful."

What's the deal with the song 'Armies'?

"It's about censorship. "The armies are marching the censors are coming to cut out your heart." Don't worry, you will be supplied with a lyric sheet. But it's anti-censorship and it's something that I did in a Walt Disney kind of way. It's a cartoon of a song. And I'll tell you who the major inspiration was: I think it was Jeremy Irons when he did the voice for The Lion King and that really pissed me off, because it was so bad. I thought well, you know, please, let's get real here."

So you think that someone else would have been more suitable?

"Yeah."

Who?

"Moi! Hahhhhhhehee."

Does your interest in psychopaths (the lyrics for the album's title track are loosely based on serial killer John Wayne Gacey) come from the fact that those personalities mirror something in you?

"No. But at the same time, I can see in myself that I have the capabilities to murder quite a few people. There are many out there that I'd love to annihilate with extreme prejudice, but because I don't that makes me better because I can control those instincts. Why can't he? You shouldn't act on all your instincts, otherwise you're chaos and that's unhealthy. Particularly from the victim's point of view."

You've said that what stopped you from being a psychopath was your family.

"I think my family were great. They did everything right, now looking back on it. At the time I hated them as indeed all kids do: you think everything your mum and dad does is wrong. But I'm big enough to face up to that. I was an annoying little toad. And they wouldn't let me get away with it."

But your father was hard on you as a kid.

"Yeah. That's made me what I am. No room for bullshit. It just couldn't be tolerated."

But does that make you direct the cruelty to people around you?

"No. I'd be a hell of a lot gentler. I think there are other ways, but I understand that that's the way he was brought up and he didn't really have the education to know differently. Mostly I've educated myself, but I definitely learnt from them quite a few things. In particular, being able to look at myself seriously and know when I'm doing something wrong and know that it is wrong and I should stop."

Would you make a good father yourself?

"Probably not."

Why not?

"Well, I don't know. Yes, I suppose I would. You know, one of my earlier ambitions when I was younger was to be a schoolteacher. I really like looking after kids, I just enjoyed it, it was fun. But, because of the way I work and the way I move around the world, it would be very irresponsible of me. I wouldn't want to be one of those temporary dads that turns up occasionally."

Do you have a good relationship with your father now?

"Oh very. He's a mate. Very honest with each other. He's brilliant fun. We go out on a pub crawl. Excellent!"

What effect is the aging process having on you?

"God only knows. You take it as it comes, you try to cross each bridge as you come up on it. Just don't keep burning them, that's what I learned."

You have this suspicion of all groups it would seem; you don't want to join in with anything.

"Yeah, yeah. I don't like mass movements. Never have, where everybody dresses alike or thinks alike. I think that's negative. Anything that destroys the individual is wrong."

Doesn't that leave you quite isolated?

"No, quite the opposite actually. It means that any friendships you have formed are based on complete honesty rather than using. Because you're not using people to back up your sorry-arsed third-rate ideas. You're constantly challenged and that's perfect."

Do you belong to any group of any sort?

"No, the only thing I ever joined was the Alice Cooper Fan Club! And that's the truth. And I thought they ripped me off. I got really angry when I sent in my ten quid and all I got back was a little box of chicken feathers and a note."

I thought in LA you at least had to join AA.

"Oh well, that's the fashionable way isn't it? But sorry, I love my alcohol and I don't see alcohol as a problem at all."

Do you have an addictive personality?

"No I don't. I don't think there's such a thing as addictive personalities. I just think there's lazy people and there's people who are not lazy. Lazy people end up with problems."

Have you ever had therapy?

"Nope. The idea of wasting my hard-earned money on an analyst or a therapist is just utterly fucking ridiculous. What kind of arsehole must you be to pay $500 an hour to babble to someone who you know isn't really listening, who's possibly as fucked up as you are, because, quite frankly, we've all got problems. But deal with them! Talk to yourself. If something in your life isn't working out, then sit yourself and think: 'Why?'. If you keep repeating the same mistakes then just stop it. It's relatively simple."

Do you think what happened to you when you were a kid, when you went down with meningitis, shaped your life?

"Possibly, yes. Well, a year in a coma and all of that, complete memory loss and having to start from scratch again and not fitting in again at school when you go back, yeah, you do tend to see yourself as an individual from that point onwards."

So in a way that invented punk rock.

"Probably."

So it was like Saint Paul's brain seizure on the road to Damascus pathed the way for Christianity.

"Oh God! Johnny's got a Saint Sebastian complex! So then St. Paul became a religious fanatic, which is really a form of insanity. The worst kind, I think, because it's so self-righteous, and that's very dangerous because they want to inflict that on everyone. They don't accept that everyone might have different opinions. Dogma!"

You make out that you weren't that affected by religion in the book.

"Oh wrong. There were plenty of nuns and priests around. And they try to brainwash you, quite frankly, and in a way, if you can come out of that you were a much, much healthier person. And, in fact, everyone I know from school - because I've still got a lot of friends from school - all fought against that and we're all successful in our own different ways as people. I don't know too many who fell for the Catholic trap, or indeed any religious trap."

When you were a teenager you felt that you were unlovable, is that right?

"Well, I always thought so, but now looking back on it I realize that I was just wallowing in my own romance. Because it is kind of romantic, isn't it? The lonely, unloved child. And it's just nonsense really."

Did feeling unlovable slow down your sexual development, because you got involved with women later?

"No. No. There was huge fear. I was very scared of sex. But I got over that real quick. Hahaheee! I don't quite know what it was."

Are you aware of being attractive to women?

"I have to be very aware that a lot of women want me because of what I am, not who I am. And I'm not one for fucking about. I'm incredibly loyal. It took me an awful long time to finally tie the knot with my wife, but once done, then that's a commitment forever, because that's something I don't do lightly, commit myself. I'm very disciplined in that way, and I don't find that a problem. I can't be tempted because I don't want to be."

So monogamy isn't a struggle for you?

"No, it's perfectly natural. And I understand that for many people it isn't, and that's fine, too."

Have you ever been physically attracted to a man?

"Nah. Nah... Horrible stinky brutes."

Do you get on better with men or women?

"Er, with women. Oddly enough Virgin Records is partly responsible, because they've always employed a majority of women, particularly in England, and so that's the way it worked better. They tend to be less dishonest. When it's a bunch of blokes working at a record label there's all conceits going on and power-playing and the egotism of knowing-their-jobs-and-wanting-you-to-know-it-too. I find that just fucking vile. All that macho shit! Just assholes."

Do you want to do more acting?

"Oh God, no. It's too dreary. I think to be a really good actor you'd have to have no personality whatsoever, so that you just live for your latest role."

Do you think that it's particularly difficult for you because you've been acting for a lot of your public life anyway?

"Er, well, in terms of when I do interviews I have my defenses ready, but that's not acting - that's quite different, that's being forewarned. Gone are the days when I'd walk into an interview all happy-go-lucky only to be trapped and cornered by a few smart-arse remarks."

But behind the image that people have of you, would you still say that you're basically a sweet and gentle person with good intentions?

"Yeah... I would. But there's a smile on my face because at the same time I know that there's the other side to that. I can be absolutely vile and a complete bastard to work for, and that's mostly because I have a very serious work ethic, and people find me a nightmare in a studio because I know what I want and I won't settle for second best.

"I don't see the recording side as a joke, and far too many people turn up blind drunk or drugged and think they can fob their way through and I just won't tolerate it. Because in the long run who's suffering for that is not only yourself but anyone who has any kind of respect for you because, if you're offering them product which you've half-heartedly fobbed off on them, then you're really being dishonest and disgusting. So no Happy Mondays for me."

You said you'd only do music for maybe another ten years in '87. What do you think now?

"I think maybe I'll only be doing it for another ten years. I don't know. As soon as I get bored and run out of ideas then I'll stop, but I haven't reached that yet. I genuinely enjoy doing what I do, it's the best thing that's ever happened to me in my whole life, to be given the freedom to do whatever I want. That's what the music biz can give you. You don't have to toe the line.

"I'm a classic example of not toeing the line. And I'm successful in my own way because of that. I don't care for chart positions or anything like that. And somehow or other, through this enormous lack of promotion around me, every now and again there's a hit single and I've no idea how it got there."

Do you have any sense of how much you're up for adventure from now on - because you've had this huge adventure, going from tin baths and rats to living the lifestyle in LA.

"Yeah, and it's all brilliant I can tell ya. It's difficult but it's brilliant. And it's completely worth it. I feel totally justified. I am where I am because I made damn well sure I'd be here and on my own terms and I've really, seriously, got no one to thank for that but myself.

"I've not fobbed anyone off, I haven't delivered faulty product, I've really cared about what I do, and will continue to. So I feel justified, yes. You reap what you sow. A liar couldn't last this long."