The Orange County Register
October 24th, 2007

Johnny Rotten sounds off on the Sex Pistols return

For all of rock 'n' roll's inherent rebellious bluster, it's rare that any of its practitioners actually speak their minds – apart from mouthing off about other stars they don't like, of course.

God save Johnny Rotten, then, for he remains as unrepentantly outspoken as ever.

The caustic frontman for the Sex Pistols – known by his proper name, John Lydon, ever since the band imploded soon after the release of its seminal 1977 debut – returns to the spotlight this week as the Pistols prepare to celebrate the 30th anniversary of their still-incendiary work and the (more or less) birth of punk rock in general.

As it has sporadically during the past decade, the original lineup – Lydon, guitarist Steve Jones (known to locals as host of "Jonesy's Jukebox" on Indie 103.1 FM), drummer Paul Cook and bassist Glen Matlock (who preceded the infamous Sid Vicious) – has reunited for a series of shows, this time primarily throughout England next month. As a warm-up, the Pistols will play for invited guests and Indie 103.1 winners Thursday night at the Roxy in West Hollywood – not only their first-ever club gig in Southern California, but one of only a handful of appearances the band has made since unexpectedly resurfacing with its aptly named Filthy Lucre Tour of 1996.

Since then, Lydon, 51, has kept his profile up less through music (his last album was a 1997 solo effort, "Psycho's Path") and more by wielding his scurrilous celebrity.

He hilariously turned up years ago on "Judge Judy," knocking down a suit from a former drummer in his second band, Public Image Ltd. He hosted his own short-lived VH1 show, Rotten TV, in 2000. More recently he took part in (and departed midway through) the BBC reality series "I'm a Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here!" and just a few months ago could be seen haranguing no-talents on Fuse's "Bodog Battle of the Bands." (Neither he nor the rest of the Pistols were seen accepting their induction into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame last year, however. Irked over being asked to pay to attend the ceremony, the band stayed away, refusing the honor.)

If all of Lydon's television antics aren't enough to make some purists' stomachs turn, there's now this: The Sex Pistols have just finished rerecording their notorious song "Anarchy in the U.K." for use in the third installment of Activision's immensely popular "Guitar Hero" game.

Call him a sellout for doing so and Lydon will turn Rotten all over, disabusing an inquisitive reporter of misconceptions. He says he hasn't made a mint in property investments, for instance: "I'm on skid row since the day I first started!" Nor will the Pistols see a dime of "Guitar Hero" money, he claims: "Any money we were looking forward to making on that we had to spend rerecording the (bleeping) song!"

As for anyone bothered by the idea of this norm-defying lot consenting to something as conventional as an anniversary tour, well, Lydon's got a response for that, too: "Don't be telling me I can't do a damn thing in my life! … People are putting false, fake values on us without understanding that we're human beings."

It's a wild half-hour chat, with Lydon – a longtime L.A. resident who was stranded in the city at the end of the Sex Pistols disastrous sole tour of the States in early '78 – offering choice words about the Ramones ("Mommy and Daddy didn't buy us no guitars!"), the Clash ("Highly manufactured"), Gov. Schwarzenegger ("Fine job he isn't doing!") and Britney Spears ("She doesn't know who she is anymore"). Oddly enough, he had kind things to say about the royal family.

"The mad ol' sod's coming out of hiding!" he declares as we say hello. Love him or loathe him, there's still no other quite like him.

Orange County Register: So why are these shows happening? Why commemorate the 30th anniversary?

John Lydon: Well, it's an anniversary of punk in England, and there's been garbage rubbish bands performing all year trying to claim the credit for what existed 30 years ago. We just decided to put our foot down on that and tell a few home truths. Started with one gig in London, which expanded into five – didn't think 25,000 people wanted to see us! And so … why not?

And then an offer to play Manchester came along, and that's 15,000. And so, again, why not? That's our homeland, you know? We're loyal to that place, and this is like "thank you" to people who have been loyal to us. That's how it should be.

OCR: Especially if there have been also-rans trying to cash in …

JL:Everybody's trying to claim the credit for inventing punk. It is utterly ridiculous, utterly insane. And that Ramones nonsense going on and on and on – how on Earth are the Ramones anything at all like the Sex Pistols? We came from a culture facing some serious challenges when we were young. We were the complete bottom line – the poorest of the poor. We come from squalor and fought our way up tooth and claw. Mommy and Daddy didn't buy us no guitars.

It's wrong to make a comparison, and these idiots don't understand that. I have no begrudging of what the Ramones do or any of them bands. But they did not come from harsh realities – and therefore (are) incomparable.

OCR: But surely there was both an American punk and an English punk.

JL:Yes, there always has been, absolutely. But don't try to, like, claim the glory. I mean, it's bands even before us that are claiming they invented everything. There's nothing to invent! I am who I am. Nobody made me, far as I can make out. Not even my parents claim that responsibility.

OCR: Well, it is rather ludicrous that American punk bands, great though many of them were …

JL:Yes, yes.

OCR: …that any of them would feel they came from the same sort of socioeconomic revolution that was going on at the time in England.

JL:Yeah, well, they try to make light of that, pretend that that doesn't exist. And that's where you miss the point: We're working class, and that means something in England. It means you have no hope, no future. Every line in every (Pistols) song is about that.

That's important, and I hate to see my life trivialized by idiots trying to grab glory that doesn't belong to them. Even our own manager was at that game. Malcolm (McLaren) tried to grab credit for everything. It eventually made him look ridiculous.

OCR: Does it surprise you that people still respond so strongly to the no-future sentiments you put down 30 years ago?

JL:Well, oddly enough, the Establishment, if you want to call them that, still resent us bitterly, whether it be a Margaret Thatcher government or the now recently departed Tony Blair. They've both made life hell for us – and, indeed, we get a great deal of pleasure making life hell for them.

You know, we're seen as antiroyalists, yet I'm rather fond of the royal family. I'm just not fond of the attitudes I'm getting from them. It's a piece of history. There's an invigorating pulse to a British heartbeat to have something so ancestral as a royal family. It means your roots go back way into the centuries, and that's an important thing. But whether you like or dislike that according to current political trends is irrelevant. It exists – you can't pretend it doesn't. This politically correct thinking is a load of bollocks. It hurts all of us.

OCR: I was about to tip-toe around this next question, but seeing as you're Johnny Rotten …

JL:Don't bother.

OCR: It's certainly no secret you've done well for yourself financially …

JL:Ha-ha! ( Laughs loudly.) That's one of my biggest, most fabulous lies.

OCR: So it's not true?

JL:Ah, I'm on skid row since the day I first started! When you try to keep bands like I do together, money flies out the window. Public Image (Ltd.), for instance – highly, highly expensive outfit to control the purse strings of, you know? And it was all basically down to me to coordinate and keep it together, 'cause there was no help from any individual members in that way.

OCR: But I had read that you had done very well for yourself in property investment.

JL:Yeah, well, that again is a most hilarious joke that sort of backfired. A couple of years back we played the Jubilee in England. They wouldn't give us a venue, but we managed to find an old stadium that was derelict in Crystal Palace … and we put together a what-ya-call it, a brochure for the gig – a program, you'd call it. And in it we fabricated this story that I was a property speculator, with various assorted pictures of different houses for sale.

What nobody bothered to look closer at was that all of these were derelict buildings and broken-down caravans. But you know how the press can be sometimes. They take the thing literally and assume, "Oh, that must be it!" What starts out as a joke ends up as a bigger truth.

OCR: Then you do still identify with your working-class roots.

JL:Oh, you can't take it out of you! You're born that way! And in many ways I would never, ever give that up, because that's everything I've learned – to be deeply, deeply honest and clear of heart. I don't need the lying nonsense of the wealthy, the powers-that-be. I don't need to suck up to them. They're all cheats. They cheated me out of my childhood and out of my life. And I'm certainly not gonna join that game. And anyone who feels superior to me can go (bleep) off and die, quite frankly. ( Laughs.) I'm not tolerating it.

I'm self-educated. Education was free, but believe me, you had to fight for even that in England. I clawed my way out of the ghetto, so why would I ever go back on that and tell a lie, or join the crowd? I'm not part of it.

OCR: That's why I had to ask about making a killing in property investing. I was baffled by it. And even if you had done well for yourself, which you're certainly entitled to do …

JL:Yeah, what is the jealousy about that? It's ridiculous.

OCR: Right. But what the Sex Pistols mean to so many people, what they represent …

JL:Yeah, well, people are putting false, fake values on us without understanding that we're human beings! And we really seriously struggled in our early lives. Seriously! So now, look, we've attached ourselves to Guitar Hero … a (bleepin') great video game. It's brilliant! I love it! I'm not just saying it. It is the best fun, it really is. It's stage one to going and getting a band together.

But this idea that we have no right to do that, and isn't that selling out – selling out what? You know, any money we were looking forward to making on that we had to spend rerecording the (bleeping) song, because Virgin, our record company, have lost the masters.

OCR: And what is up with that? Where are the masters?

JL:You tell me. In the pending department!

OCR: I was going to ask … never mind the video game, but isn't the mere idea of doing shows to commemorate this anniversary the antithesis of the Pistols? But then I remembered that your attitude going into the Filthy Lucre Tour in the '90s was much the same – who says you can't do this?

JL:Don't be telling me I can't do a damn thing in my life! The one thing I can promise is that I do not lie. We're true to ourselves, and if that isn't good enough, well, then I welcome you to all the (crap) that's out there. There's plenty of that. But don't be parceling that onto us, because we are not part of that – never have been, never will be.

It's like this, I'll tell it straight: The Ramones are responsible for one and one thing only – for being the Ramones.

OCR: But the Clash?

JL:Oh, the Clash we're highly manufactured. Totally. With one clear ambition – to try … actually not try, but to BE bigger than the Sex Pistols. That's a direct quote of poor ol' Joe Strummer. You know, that's where I lost respect for him, and that was 30 years ago.

OCR: Did you ever regain respect for him?

JL:Oh, as a human being, Joe was good-hearted. But just a trifle confused. That band for me, they got themselves bogged down in sloganeering. You know, it's all rather pompous, innit? And jokey and arty – very arty and affected. Dead-serious left-wing socialism – I mean, yawn! You know, yawn! Socialism doesn't do working-class people no good at all. Just makes the wealthy feel like they care. Anything that keeps the poor in government project housing is definitely not for our benefit.

OCR: But couldn't someone accuse you of affectation with things you did with Public Image?

JL:( Perhaps miffed, it's hard to tell.) How would that be affected? I hope I affected the entire world.

OCR: Well, the process of creating anything has to have some element of artifice, doesn't it?

JL:I disagree. I think the arts are what people label it after you've achieved something. But I've never sat down and went, "Ho! I've got to make an artistic masterpiece by 2:30 p.m. – and here it comes!" This is Johnny Rotten you're talking to here, you know, not some bloke sitting on the toilet contemplating his navel.

What I dodo is purely explore my inner, deepest problems. That to me is what songwriting really is all about – problem-solving.

OCR: So why has there not been much songwriting from you lately?

JL:Well, because I've done an awful lot of other things, haven't I? And I've done them, as far as I'm concerned, to the best of my ability. It doesn't always have to be writing songs. That would be too limiting. I like to explore other areas of communication. And it's taken me years to get over the fear of being in front of a camera.

OCR: I didn't know you had that.

JL:Yeah, always. Just very nervous about being filmed. But I give up. What's that conceit about? What, people will think I'm ugly? You know what? I am! Get over it!

OCR: Arguably you can shake more people out of their preconceived notions by being in front of the camera.

JL:Yeah, that's more or less what I'm doing. But it takes time to waltz into that. A lot of inner thought processes have to be complimentary. You know, you can't go stand up in front of a camera and waffle on about your big, bad self if you feel insecure. It's small steps – it's always like that, with everything I've done. I don't just jump into the deep end of the pool and go, "I think I'll learn to swim now." It isn't quite like that – though sometimes it does end up that way, 'cause you're actually pushed in.

OCR: Look at how fast everything happened with the Pistols.

JL:Oh, that was murderous. How we managed to survive that … that was the most pressure I think any human being can be put under. It was not good that we broke up because of that, but it was good that we got to really like and appreciate each other some years later, and could look at it with a fresh clean eye. We worked out what the problems were – and basically it was the management! ( Laughs.) There was an awful lot of he-said-she-said going on, where nobody actually said anything. A lot of misinformation, 'cause Malcolm is a very disingenuous person. He blows his own trumpet, but it's nothing but hot air.

OCR: I wondered about that '78 U.S. tour, playing oddball places, and Texas …

JL:We were told that the South was all rednecks and hateful people, and I found them to be really warm and friendly. America lies to itself about even its own population – so what chance do you stand of understanding the Iraq War? ( Laughs.) These are your humans, your fellow countrymen. Why wasn't anyone playing to 'em? Well, we did, and we opened the doors. Now the South is on everyone's tour list. And why shouldn't it have been?

OCR: But was that your decision or did that come from Malcolm?

JL:No, no, no, that was all of our decisions. I was enthralled, you know? We had heard about your Civil War – I wanted to see it up close and personal! You know, there's less racial tension down in some of those states than there is in, say, Chicago, which is still a hell-hole of hate. What a sad town that is. What an indictment on America. That is such a blot on the landscape. You know, it takes four hours to get past the chimney stacks of the factories when you drive out of there at night. It's the most astounding, frightening sight. There's one to put on the tour guide.

OCR: So it was a deliberate thing to avoid Los Angeles when you came here?

JL:No, no. It was just that we wanted the South, and there really wasn't anything up north. CBGB's was being bantered to us, but it's like, why the (bleep) would we go there? What for? To play to a load of poetry readers in New York? "A copy of Rimbaud poetry and a Bud Lite, please!"

OCR: But you live in L.A.

JL:Yeah, I love it. I love America. I very, very much love America.

OCR: More so than anywhere else?

JL:Well, California is, for me, magnificent. I think the people here are special.

OCR: Why? What is it about here vs. anywhere else?

JL:Well, I've made it my home. I've traveled the world, but it's the place I like the best. People just do not get in your face so much. I mean, there's all kinds of weird wackiness going on here. And I'm very upset that Phil Spector is still free. But it's that kind of California thing – the jury just didn't want to make a decision.

OCR: That's very Californian.

JL:It really is, and it's kind of a fault. I'm definitely trying to readjust them with more direct truth.

OCR: What do you think of Republicans here, though, particularly in Southern California?

JL:Well, we've got Arnie Schwarzenegger at the helm! Fine job he isn't doing.

OCR: But there's a long history of Republicanism that goes back decades.

JL:Yeah, and California is also full of alleged Nazis … and they're just daft, you know? The swastika, that symbol, the whole thing of it … they lost the war. You're wearing a loser's badge, you daft sod! Are you telling me you want to lose another? 'Cause you will.

Racism, hatred, separation, this distinction of classes – all of this stuff's got to stop. All of us, we're born into this world with just one life, and that's it. We don't exist after. And anyone who's trying to divide us up into alleged different groupings and camps can stop – muststop. Every time you make a moral majority decision about another caste of people, you're taking their life off them. I grew up with all that hate wrapped around me, and I don't like to see it in the midday sun.

OCR: Do those feelings come back to you when you sing these songs? What do you think of the album all these years later?

JL:Well, I was fortunate enough to have got it right the first time. So there's no shame, there's no pain, it's all gain – because I mean it just as I did then. I didn't get a word wrong. That's not me being arrogant. I just spoke from the heart, and I still do. So nothing's really changed in that way, not from my point of view. Has society learned anything from us? I hope so. You know, we're not all bad. There's some good in us. I dodo this for people.

OCR: I think people get confused about you and assume you are anti-everything.

JL:But why? Why make that assumption? That's an awful lot to assume of a human being, innit? What gives anyone the right to be that absurd with me? Actually, opinions like that tell me more about them than it does about meself.

OCR: I assume that in '77 you couldn't have imagined that you'd be celebrating a 30th anniversary of all this.

JL:No, I never even thought we'd have a chance of being listened to. I thought we'd be laughed off the stage wherever we went. ( Laughs.)

OCR: You didn't think the influence would last at least a few years?

JL:Ehhh, never had any great prospects in my mind for it, just stuck with it, 'cause I knew what I was doing was what I genuinely meant. Luckily, that's been applauded in us, and I'm very grateful for that. Thank you, general public, for understanding me, 'cause there have been times in my life when I haven't understood meself.

But don't assume I'm doing it because I hate everyone and everything. Quite the opposite. I love life, I love people, and I want everyone to live as long as they can, 'cause they're ain't nothing for them after this. And you don't have to hurt anyone. People who want to hurt you are people that are ruining their own lives, and they want to ruin others. You just have to stop and look at yourself and go, "You know, I'm a fool, and I don't want to be one any longer."

OCR: Is it fair to view "Never Mind the Bollocks" as the bedrock of your philosophy?

JL:Yeah, yeah. I learned just so much about myself in the Sex Pistols that that was a real good rock to put a church on top of, you know? I learned how to keep it clean, keep it straight, be honest. And we had a manager that was none of those things! ( Laughs.) It was an uphill climb, but listen, some of us survived it. And we're very grateful to each other for that.

OCR: (Knowing we're short on time.) May I ask one last question?

JL:Did we mean it, maaan? ( Laughs hard at the thought of questioning that line from "God Save the Queen.")

OCR: No, not that.

JL:That was a definite dig at the hippies, that one.

OCR: Do reporters actually ask you that?

JL:Yes.

OCR: You know, I always dread getting on the phone for interviews with certain people, because I fear the dumb questions they may have been asked recently.

JL:I know what you're saying, yes. Far too many people in, well, just the music industry take themselves too seriously. Everything I do in my life has to be with a smile, but that's not sarcasm or irony. Even my biggest calamities and problems, I walk through them with a smile. I want to resolve a problem.

OCR: What else can you do?

JL:Well, most people tend to run away from these things, you know? Or they want to try to pretend that they're somebody they're not. And there's the shame in it. I think that's probably what's happening to poor ol' Britney right now. She doesn't know who she is anymore.

OCR: If she ever did.

JL:You know … thrust into it at a too early an age … very few people can come smiling out of that. But you know … wish her well.

OCR: My question was, given what you've said here about other bands of the punk era, are there any you like?

JL:Well, the Buzzcocks were fantastic. They've written some of the most excellent lyrics. And the Kinks were stunning. Ray Davies is one of the world's best songwriters. But the Buzzcocks – I mean, you know, you can't be knocking that, you'd be daft! And less name bands – Magazine, the Raincoats. The Slits were hilarious. They broke so many boundaries in England. Before that, women were what? Kinda just hairdo's. Stand in a corner and sing sweet cherubic songs.

OCR: Gang of Four?

JL:Yeah, Gang of Four. A little intellectual, which kinda muddied them up a bit, but their noises were so excruciatingly, tortuously interesting, you could not but smile.

And all of the diversity in everything! Not this narrow-minded little "everyone put Vaseline in your hair and wear a leather jacket!" attitude. It's not about what you wear, it's about who you are, and what you are, and what you do with that.

OCR: Any prediction for the show? Bedlam at the Roxy?

JL: Well, it's only a small little gig, innit? It's just to play to our locals.

OCR: Gonna be fantastic, I bet.

JL:Well, I don't know about that. Now you're making me nervous. Does that mean I have to rehearse? ( Starts laughing.) No, I like to just go straight on stage, fully fired and fearful. And make it work. 'Cause that's how life is.